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THEMA: ROCO 23400 Model DB BR-150 -How to reparatur?
THEMA: ROCO 23400 Model DB BR-150 -How to reparatur?
Vadim - 22.09.09 19:16
I recently encounter with ROCO 23400 Model DB BR150-
Photo of this model:
http://www.modellbahnshop-lippe.com/article_data/images/1/4943_b.jpg
This model cannot run, having some troubles:
1) 3-nd axle of all 2 trucks - NOT POWERED and have some VERTICAL BACKLASH, and when loco rides on radius track - these 3-nd's axles rises under rail... and train derails.
2) The same occurs then loco loaded with carsin straight way but at slope about 2 degrees.(mooving onto slope ) Namely: First and second powered axles are mooving forvard so that ends of trucks are mooving down, and first axle rise up under rail, ... and train also derails.
This( model was new before using.)
MY QUESTION:
How i must repair it?
My things about it:
1) How can i power 3-nd axles ?
As i believe it's too fiddly and difficult making precise "Zahnrad"-s on milling mashine...
2) May be it's worth to cut 1/3 trucks and make this loco with 4-axles - all powered, mooving(remaking) truck joints with body in aim to (equally) separate mass of loco between two remaining axles of every trucks (zu gleichen Teilen?)
3) May de i must discard such complicated loco at all?
May be It's not worth to repair it?, it's UNREPAIRABLE ?
----
-Please write who has any experience with this model.
-Also, please tell me which supplier has this modell with all axles powered?
-Or please advice the good 4-axle model of this loco (BR 110 or BR141 - like BR150 but shorter)?
---
Vadim
Photo of this model:
http://www.modellbahnshop-lippe.com/article_data/images/1/4943_b.jpg
This model cannot run, having some troubles:
1) 3-nd axle of all 2 trucks - NOT POWERED and have some VERTICAL BACKLASH, and when loco rides on radius track - these 3-nd's axles rises under rail... and train derails.
2) The same occurs then loco loaded with carsin straight way but at slope about 2 degrees.(mooving onto slope ) Namely: First and second powered axles are mooving forvard so that ends of trucks are mooving down, and first axle rise up under rail, ... and train also derails.
This( model was new before using.)
MY QUESTION:
How i must repair it?
My things about it:
1) How can i power 3-nd axles ?
As i believe it's too fiddly and difficult making precise "Zahnrad"-s on milling mashine...
2) May be it's worth to cut 1/3 trucks and make this loco with 4-axles - all powered, mooving(remaking) truck joints with body in aim to (equally) separate mass of loco between two remaining axles of every trucks (zu gleichen Teilen?)
3) May de i must discard such complicated loco at all?
May be It's not worth to repair it?, it's UNREPAIRABLE ?
----
-Please write who has any experience with this model.
-Also, please tell me which supplier has this modell with all axles powered?
-Or please advice the good 4-axle model of this loco (BR 110 or BR141 - like BR150 but shorter)?
---
Vadim
Hi Vadim,
the 3rd axles are not powered because they are under mechanical pressure of plastic spring. Unfortunately this also will apply braking force onto the axle. Oiling can help but as a caveat, on the side with the opening below the motor's collector in the bottom of the chassis, the oil will spray into the hole and the motor might smoke and burn.
I could imagine the loco will derail If the plastic nose is missing from the bogie, e.g. because it was broken or was erratically cut off to make this axle run more smoothly.
So could you check that both bogies still have the nose above the inner axles?
Grüße, Peter W.
the 3rd axles are not powered because they are under mechanical pressure of plastic spring. Unfortunately this also will apply braking force onto the axle. Oiling can help but as a caveat, on the side with the opening below the motor's collector in the bottom of the chassis, the oil will spray into the hole and the motor might smoke and burn.
I could imagine the loco will derail If the plastic nose is missing from the bogie, e.g. because it was broken or was erratically cut off to make this axle run more smoothly.
So could you check that both bogies still have the nose above the inner axles?
Grüße, Peter W.
Hi Vadim
I don't have exactly the same model, but I have the parent of this model, sold as 2273A. I have bought the model in 1983, since than I am using it quite often. I have never encountered any of the problems you describe in #0. And, in the early years (i.e. when I was young), track layout was not very smooth.
The only problem with derailment occured on turnouts due to the roco-like small "Radsatzinnenmaß" (= distance between the wheels on axle).
From my experience something has to be wrong with your 150. Can you send pictures from the bogie or the situation of derailment?
The only alternatives to the Roco 150 is from old Arnold, I am not sure, if they have all axles powered.
BR 110 and BR 140 are available from Arnold, Fleischmann, Hobbytrain/Lemke, Minitrix.
BR 141 are available form Arnold and Fleischmann.
All of them have different advantages and disadvantages. Models which are known to be robust are Fleischmann 110/140 and 141 (except for the Fleischmann like motor problems), Minitrix 110/112/140 (old versions, the new versions might encounter polyswitch problems), old Arnold 110/140 (current versions are too new to be experienced for longer time).
Greetings,
Udo.
I don't have exactly the same model, but I have the parent of this model, sold as 2273A. I have bought the model in 1983, since than I am using it quite often. I have never encountered any of the problems you describe in #0. And, in the early years (i.e. when I was young), track layout was not very smooth.
The only problem with derailment occured on turnouts due to the roco-like small "Radsatzinnenmaß" (= distance between the wheels on axle).
From my experience something has to be wrong with your 150. Can you send pictures from the bogie or the situation of derailment?
The only alternatives to the Roco 150 is from old Arnold, I am not sure, if they have all axles powered.
BR 110 and BR 140 are available from Arnold, Fleischmann, Hobbytrain/Lemke, Minitrix.
BR 141 are available form Arnold and Fleischmann.
All of them have different advantages and disadvantages. Models which are known to be robust are Fleischmann 110/140 and 141 (except for the Fleischmann like motor problems), Minitrix 110/112/140 (old versions, the new versions might encounter polyswitch problems), old Arnold 110/140 (current versions are too new to be experienced for longer time).
Greetings,
Udo.
Hi,
BR 150 from (old) Arnold has four powered axles, the first and the third one of each bogie. This loco runs well due to its rather high weight and its proved standard construction, only its optical appearance is somehow diffent to other models - and the 1:1 locos too (in my mind). Therefore I do not believe it may be a good advice to look for them.
When you are looking for a well recommendable German 6-axles loco, then have a note on BR 151, in reality this is the next generation of locos of class 150. From this there exist models made by Fleischmann and Minitrix. Both (Fleischmann and Minitrix) are told to be advisable models (perhaps Fleschmann a little more than Minitrix, but this is more or less emotionally...).
Regards
Horst
BR 150 from (old) Arnold has four powered axles, the first and the third one of each bogie. This loco runs well due to its rather high weight and its proved standard construction, only its optical appearance is somehow diffent to other models - and the 1:1 locos too (in my mind). Therefore I do not believe it may be a good advice to look for them.
When you are looking for a well recommendable German 6-axles loco, then have a note on BR 151, in reality this is the next generation of locos of class 150. From this there exist models made by Fleischmann and Minitrix. Both (Fleischmann and Minitrix) are told to be advisable models (perhaps Fleschmann a little more than Minitrix, but this is more or less emotionally...).
Regards
Horst
The loco is in order.
I think the reason is in my complicated layout, having radius slopes(grade ways) and turnouts on it.
------
TO HORST:
My Roco 23400 in comparison with Arnold br150, has first and second axles powered, third - not powered and generates only the problems.
(Why engineeds didnt power all axles??????? as in M62(Trix) or in Ljudmila(Brava)??? - the best my locos )
Yes, this axle springed, and when loco pull long train at a hill, first (uncoupled) boogie goes forvard(due to pull force of middle wheels), rested on springed third axle(because it's unpowered) when first axle - raised up over the rail (all the boogie operates as weighting machine or yoke). If we have some radius - derailment took place.
-------
To UDO:
Sorry, i cant find out Roco2273A, to analyze it.
I think the reason is in my complicated layout, having radius slopes(grade ways) and turnouts on it.
------
TO HORST:
My Roco 23400 in comparison with Arnold br150, has first and second axles powered, third - not powered and generates only the problems.
(Why engineeds didnt power all axles??????? as in M62(Trix) or in Ljudmila(Brava)??? - the best my locos )
Yes, this axle springed, and when loco pull long train at a hill, first (uncoupled) boogie goes forvard(due to pull force of middle wheels), rested on springed third axle(because it's unpowered) when first axle - raised up over the rail (all the boogie operates as weighting machine or yoke). If we have some radius - derailment took place.
-------
To UDO:
Sorry, i cant find out Roco2273A, to analyze it.
The symptoms that you are telling about are unknown for me. Sure, the arrangement of the powered axles is only suboptimal at Roco's 150, when it needs much power to pull a long train. I suppose too that this is the reason to solve it different in many other locos, as it is in Arnold's 150.
Whether in a 6-acles loco all six axles are powered, or only four, should not make a real difference. The most important thing is only, that all of the power can be braught to the rails, what will depend on the loco's weight and the arrangement of the powered axles.
But I do not understand, why the third axle is going to spring at your loco. This is really unusual and I can not see any connection with being unpowered this axle. Sure, it can raise a little but this is mainly to get a not interrupted power contact between the rail and the wheel(s), when the rails are situated a little irregular.
What I do suppose, and this is already said, is, that the distances between the wheels on axle have to be checked, and when corrected your problem should be solved.
Roco 2273A is the same loco as yours, as it is sold since the early 1980'ies. I can not imagine, that there was a significant change in its technical construction, at least not in its boogies and axles etc.
Regards
Horst
Whether in a 6-acles loco all six axles are powered, or only four, should not make a real difference. The most important thing is only, that all of the power can be braught to the rails, what will depend on the loco's weight and the arrangement of the powered axles.
But I do not understand, why the third axle is going to spring at your loco. This is really unusual and I can not see any connection with being unpowered this axle. Sure, it can raise a little but this is mainly to get a not interrupted power contact between the rail and the wheel(s), when the rails are situated a little irregular.
What I do suppose, and this is already said, is, that the distances between the wheels on axle have to be checked, and when corrected your problem should be solved.
Roco 2273A is the same loco as yours, as it is sold since the early 1980'ies. I can not imagine, that there was a significant change in its technical construction, at least not in its boogies and axles etc.
Regards
Horst
Thanks, Horst.
Now, i ve got robust TRIX 12548 - 4 axle analogue of this loco. 4 axles powered and pickuped.
It really works well!
Udo, thanks for advice!
For more stable power pickup (avoiding traction tires isolation problemm) - i ll use 2 loco in couple.
As to ROCO 23400 concerns:
I think that "yoke" not really lead to derailments at code 80 rails, but i have code 55 rails where wheel flange = 0.62mm instead 0.9mm.
This track up to 1/3 more sensitive to this boogie's "yoke".
All wheels and axles - OK - and checked for all dimensions.
---------
Another question :
Fleishmann ve announced BR150 - as new N-scale model in new catalogue!
Does all axles will be powered? - i dont know, there was no information.
I found some analogue at Fleischmann web
"737301 - Elektrolokomotive Reihe 1010 der ÖBB."
Link:
http://www.fleischmann.de/nc/produkte/neuheiten...ID=737301&page=1
But as i tried to translate from Deutsch - there are also 4 (of 6 ) axle powered .
---
Vadim
Now, i ve got robust TRIX 12548 - 4 axle analogue of this loco. 4 axles powered and pickuped.
It really works well!
Udo, thanks for advice!
For more stable power pickup (avoiding traction tires isolation problemm) - i ll use 2 loco in couple.
As to ROCO 23400 concerns:
I think that "yoke" not really lead to derailments at code 80 rails, but i have code 55 rails where wheel flange = 0.62mm instead 0.9mm.
This track up to 1/3 more sensitive to this boogie's "yoke".
All wheels and axles - OK - and checked for all dimensions.
---------
Another question :
Fleishmann ve announced BR150 - as new N-scale model in new catalogue!
Does all axles will be powered? - i dont know, there was no information.
I found some analogue at Fleischmann web
"737301 - Elektrolokomotive Reihe 1010 der ÖBB."
Link:
http://www.fleischmann.de/nc/produkte/neuheiten...ID=737301&page=1
But as i tried to translate from Deutsch - there are also 4 (of 6 ) axle powered .
---
Vadim
Hi Vadim,
although this is a Co'Co' loco it is not a german class BR 150. This is Austrian ÖBB 1010, which is based on the Swiss Ae 6/6 - this is protypically correct because class 1010 is a bit of a clone of class Ae 6/6.
4 axles powered is correct, the Fleischmann way is to have the middle axle not being driven. This concept has been proven in the BR 150 and BR 103 chassis since many years without complaints. The power is fully sufficient, and the middle axle can float to the side in order to run smoothly in narrow curves without tension problems in the gear.
Ain't there any dealer in Moscow where you could have a closer look and try out the models? Roco has listed 8 model stores there. As Roco and Fleischmann is one company, any dealer can get all products from both brands. Won't they stock N-gauge?
Regards, Peter
although this is a Co'Co' loco it is not a german class BR 150. This is Austrian ÖBB 1010, which is based on the Swiss Ae 6/6 - this is protypically correct because class 1010 is a bit of a clone of class Ae 6/6.
4 axles powered is correct, the Fleischmann way is to have the middle axle not being driven. This concept has been proven in the BR 150 and BR 103 chassis since many years without complaints. The power is fully sufficient, and the middle axle can float to the side in order to run smoothly in narrow curves without tension problems in the gear.
Ain't there any dealer in Moscow where you could have a closer look and try out the models? Roco has listed 8 model stores there. As Roco and Fleischmann is one company, any dealer can get all products from both brands. Won't they stock N-gauge?
Regards, Peter
Jetzt müsste man wieder Englisch können 
Lang lang ist es her
Gruß
Holger
http://ilmebahner.jimdo.com/
Lang lang ist es her
Gruß
Holger
http://ilmebahner.jimdo.com/
Beitrag editiert am 24. 09. 2009 19:37.
Ok,
I mean middle unpowered axle much better than last unpovered!!!
In case of middle unpowered axle - there is no YOKE- like boogie.
And boogie stably rests on the 2 edged and powered axles.
As to Roco suppliers, really we have 2 friendly stores.
Other stores have very expensive prices and small arrangements of modeles in Moscow.
There is no problem to get something.
Also I have friendly stores in Germany and in USA , which helps me to get some models at applicable costs.
--------
Thanks,
Vadim
I mean middle unpowered axle much better than last unpovered!!!
In case of middle unpowered axle - there is no YOKE- like boogie.
And boogie stably rests on the 2 edged and powered axles.
As to Roco suppliers, really we have 2 friendly stores.
Other stores have very expensive prices and small arrangements of modeles in Moscow.
There is no problem to get something.
Also I have friendly stores in Germany and in USA , which helps me to get some models at applicable costs.
--------
Thanks,
Vadim
Beitrag editiert am 24. 09. 2009 20:06.
Now i solved problem with BR150
Solution:
1)
I saw(file) down bearing arresters for middle axle of both boogies, so the boogie becomes rested (on full weight) on first and last axles, and middle axle simply can be springed.
This construction is stable and there is no any derailments when loco pulling heavy train with a skid .
2) I saw away 4 cheeks (near gear ) of weighting load of loco, to increase turning angle of all boogies.
Solution:
1)
I saw(file) down bearing arresters for middle axle of both boogies, so the boogie becomes rested (on full weight) on first and last axles, and middle axle simply can be springed.
This construction is stable and there is no any derailments when loco pulling heavy train with a skid .
2) I saw away 4 cheeks (near gear ) of weighting load of loco, to increase turning angle of all boogies.
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