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THEMA: Making Bobina CSD E499.1 loco from MiniTrix E40

THEMA: Making Bobina CSD E499.1 loco from MiniTrix E40
Startbeitrag
Vadim - 07.08.22 04:23
Bobina CSD E499.1 loco from MiniTrix E40

Painted as Che-Es-3 MPS USSR

Body and trucks were drawn on SolidWorks and 3D-rrinted
MiniTrix E40 chasis  remastered.

Model has:

1) No traction tyres.
2) Each  Wheel and truck springing.
3) Twiced wheel contact.
4) Coreless maxon motor .
5) Closed crank cases.
6) PowerPack.
7) Weight 130gramm.
8) Sound .
9) Train/single/shunting mode of  lights with main light separately.
10) 2  LocoUncouplers.

Layout ride: https://youtu.be/mtXMIsIa1ik

Uncouplers and lights: https://youtu.be/p1PIr3K0epk

Springing: https://youtu.be/G8-sRP6pkm8


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Hello Vadim
Absolutely great. Congretulations for this excellent Bobina.
Kurt
Hi Vadim

very very nice and good Job

what kind of dcc controller do you have for all the functions and mapping?

what dcc controller did you use for all the functions and mapping of the bobina ?

What did you print the case with ?

greetings heinz
Hi Vadim,

Your work is absolutely excellent! Thanks for sharing with us!

Helpful and interesting to see how you made the windows. The only little downside are the pantographs, which look so much like the well known mass production parts. But I don't know anything about the prototype pantographs.

Like to see more of your work

Best wishes
Carsten
Hello Vadim,

This is some crazy, extraordinary craftsmanship! 130g in this size! There is almost no Minitrix-loco left. Looking just at the electrical wiring! Is that an ESU Next18-Decoder where you removed the Next18-Socket and soldered directly to the pads?
And that self-built uncoupling-mechanism: ingenious! And finally someone, who sees, that springing wheels improves pickup significantly.

There ist one thing I must agree with Carsten, though: The pantographs are not on the same level as the rest of the loco. This masterpiece deserves something more fine.

Thanks for sharing!

Andi
Zitat - Antwort-Nr.: | Name:

what kind of dcc controller do you have for all the functions and mapping?



I use old ESU LokSound micro decoders and LokProgrammer.  LS4 or 5.  LS 5 have more function outs, but works with powerpack  by strange way.

------------------------------

Zitat - Antwort-Nr.: | Name:

What did you print the case with ?



I print it by my old chineese-bought fotopolymer 2K 3D printer (w resolution 47mkm per pixel at XY and 20mkm step per Z.), which was extreme home-modified by 395nm 200W UV source and rigid astronomically grade precise Z positioneer.    I used professional resin from perfactory Aureus printers.

-------------------------------

Zitat - Antwort-Nr.: | Name:

Helpful and interesting to see how you made the windows.



I CNC it from CD slim pack H=1.1 mm

---------------------------------

Zitat - Antwort-Nr.: | Name:

But I don't know anything about the prototype pantographs.



I use 3 phase DCC signal  use 2 rails and contact wire of  working catenary in aim to get stable E-pickup.

Demo: https://youtu.be/iRsDl_j2cSI

So, i need stable rigid panto.

I use pantos from MiniTrix E40 donor of chasis.

-------------------------------------

Zitat - Antwort-Nr.: | Name:

This is some crazy, extraordinary craftsmanship! 130g in this size! There is almost no Minitrix-loco left.



Yes, i use Pb in every places  where i can put it!   Aim - to remove traction tyres and get enough power to pull long trains. Another aim - stable E-pickup. Also i ve installed powerpack.

------------------------------------
Zitat - Antwort-Nr.: | Name:

Is that an ESU Next18-Decoder where you removed the Next18-Socket and soldered directly to the pads?



Yes.  ESU LS5  decoders -  all have very high NEXT 18 harness. It's unapplicable for very low-height locos.
I cut its cap  off by thin diamond disk, then, remove pin by pin unsoldering it, and use thin PTFE wires.

-------------------------------------

Zitat - Antwort-Nr.: | Name:

that springing wheels improves pickup significantly.



It's right! Also, springing trucks allow us to remove unspringed mass, and loco  runs quiet. There is no sound  effett of pulling brick  along  plywood.  

--------------------------------------

Hello Vadim,
thats an excellent work! Super. Thanks for the video!
Thomas
Thanks!
Can You advice a link to CSD N-Scale forum of Czech Railroad Modelling ?
Ahoj Vadim,

here you have a link: http://diskuze.modely.biz/index.php
But I don't think anyone in the Czech Republic is interested in a Russian Bobina. There are Czech bobinas in gauge N.

I have 5 Bobinas of the CD and CSD by myself.

S pozdravem
Heidi

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Aber Vadims ist hübscher als die von TH Model.

Andras
Zitat - Antwort-Nr.: | Name:

I have 5 Bobinas of the CD and CSD by myself.



Thanks a lot!

I mean  Bobina - as a class, or as an example of sufficiently small loco, which difficult to make workable at automatishe layout.
Locos which have a small number of axles (4 or, even, less)  have high probability to get a stall due to bad contact (dust, oxydations...), and there are a big broblemm to  make them obidient. Especially, it is important for realistic smoth acceleration and braking when loco slightly moves via turnouts.
There are different way to get it ( use accumulators and wireless communications (IR or WiFi) ) but LiPo flat  Accumulators  dont fit (because full discharge will destroy it), and NiMH is not so small and flat to fit for N-Scale. Also, there are no decoders which will collectly work with it. So, the best way remains using of different capacitor power packs and   electrical pickup improvements (springing, twice contacts et al).  Also,  USP and UPS processing helps, like read commands via isolator (Like LENZ Gold + has). But LENZ -is not sound decoder, and sound decoders have not these abilities, and problem still remains...

Zitat - Antwort-Nr.: | Name:

to Heidi


You have a g00d looking Bobinas, Please tell, how you solve the problemm of it's stable working?
Zitat - Antwort-Nr.: | Name:

Andras



Thanks a lot!
Ahoj Vladim,

My Bobinas are from TH Model and have been converted to coreless motors with a flywheel. They don't have traction tyres, but they have very good traction forces. My models are analogue and drive without problems.

S pozdravem
Heidi
Zitat - Antwort-Nr.: 9 | Name: Andras

Aber Vadims ist hübscher als die von TH Model.


Das liegt immer im Auge des Betrachters. Ohne Zweifel ist die Bobina von Vladim ein sehr sauber gearbeitetes Modell, aber wenn ich Vladim richtig verstehe hat er Probleme mit einem sicheren Betrieb. Diese Probleme habe ich nicht!

Abgesehen davon, passt das Modell von Vladim nicht zu meinem Anlagenthema. Einen anderen Hersteller von akzeptablen Bobina´s der CD bzw CSD, ausser TH Model, kenne ich leider nicht und da gilt dann besser eine halbwegs akzeptable Bobina als keine Bobina

Gruß aus Südmähren
Heidi
Zitat - Antwort-Nr.: | Name:

to HEIDI / My Bobinas are from TH Model and have been converted to coreless motors with a flywheel. They don't have traction tyres, but they have very good traction forces. My models are analogue and drive without problems.




Yes, analogue power allow to get more stable run (with other equal conditions) because having a DC instead AC (DCC)  do not exclude inuctivity of motor and power-supply from rail circuitry. Inductivity will support current during disruptions of electrical contact on a dust.  At DCC  motor inductance is mooved behind rectifyer and do not participate in rail circuitry.
If you would put a DCC decoder in Your loco,  not changing or adding any other things,  run quality will  become noticeably less stable.

DC has excellent run stability, newertheless it does not have additional  function control. As to me, i need functional work, so, i was forced to use DCC.
Zitat - Antwort-Nr.: | Name:  HEIDI


Das liegt immer im Auge des Betrachters. Ohne Zweifel ist die Bobina von Vladim ein sehr sauber gearbeitetes Modell, aber wenn ich Vladim richtig verstehe hat er Probleme mit einem sicheren Betrieb. Diese Probleme habe ich nicht!

Abgesehen davon, passt das Modell von Vladim nicht zu meinem Anlagenthema. Einen anderen Hersteller von akzeptablen Bobina´s der CD bzw CSD, ausser TH Model, kenne ich leider nicht und da gilt dann besser eine halbwegs akzeptable Bobina als keine Bobina

Gruß aus Südmähren
Heidi



Please do not worry about it. One can get, or print, or paint any new body and wear on chassis.
The main attention of my post is devoted to "How make stable run for short and little axled locomotive models"
I tried to paint my bobina's  body 5 times, spending about 1 week of time, all evenings after work. Only last variant became to have  applicable look. Minor errors also exists, but I do not decide to further  lick out this model.
Hallo zusammen,

bin ich hier in einem englischsprachigem Forum gelandet?
Dachte immer 1zu160 sei deutschsprachig!

Beste Grüße
Klaus
Hallo,

jetzt ist es mal ein EIN thread  (unter tausenden), indem überwiegend englich geschrieben wird, weil das Mitglied aus Russland kommt und scho wird gemault...


"kopfschüttelnd"

Werner D.


PS @Klaus auch beim Übersetzen ist google dein Freund https://translate.google.de/?hl=de
Hallo Vadim

Zitat - Antwort-Nr.: 15 | Name: Vadim

Inductivity will support current during disruptions of electrical contact on a dust.

Did you calculate the "amount" of energy, that can be saved in those inductors? You will see, that there is NO real effect of "helping the motor".

Dietrich
Vadim,
da hast Du ein sehr schönes Modell gebaut, keine Frage.
Ich finde auch die vielen Zusatzfunktionen und Spielereien sehr schön. So etwas liebe ich.
Was ich trotzdem nicht verstehe, ist die Vollfederung:
So eine Drehgestell-Lok ist ein Standard der Großserienhersteller und auch per se nicht wirklich schwierig in der Stromaufnahme: Jedes Drehgestell ist schwenkbar aufgehängt und richtet sich auf dem Gleis aus. Der Achsstand des Drehgestells ist relativ kurz, das begrenzt den Nutzen einer gefederten oder kippbaren Achse sehr. Wenn die Federn ein- und ausfedern können, müsste das am Lokgewicht ausgerichtet werden. Wenn die Achsen in der Lagerschale aufliegen, gleichen die Federn evtl. einen Schienenstoß nach unten aus. Insgesamt riecht das nach viel Fummelei, mit der man durchaus mehr Probleme schaffen kann, als man löst. Sehe ich das so falsch?
Ich würde das also nicht unbedingt nachbauen wollen.
Deine Gleise sehen im Video sehr akkurat verlegt aus, gerade, geputzt und mit polarisierten Weichen. Die Kondensatoren sollten über verbleibende Lücken helfen.
Ich finde den Gedanken, "ich hab es gemacht, weil ich es kann und weil ich es wollte" voll in Ordnung und schaue mir das auch gerne an. Vielleicht lerne auch etwas dazu. Immer gern....
Es grüßt
Klaus
Privet Vadim,

ty zdelal ochen slozhnuju rabotu!
Ochen interessno i ochen krasivo!
Ja v vostorge!

Poka!
Ingolf

P.S.:
Hallo Vadim,

du hast eine sehr komplizierte Arbeit vollbracht!
Sehr interessant und sehr schön!
Ich bin begeistert!

Tschüss!
Ingolf
Zitat - Antwort-Nr.: 19 | Name:  Dietrich

Did you calculate the "amount" of energy, that can be saved in those inductors? You will see, that there is NO real effect of "helping the motor".  



---------DE-----------
Hallo Dietrich!
Der Gleichstromeffekt eines stabileren Laufs ist nicht in gespeicherter Energie, Motorinduktivität und Stromversorgungsdrossel, sondern erscheint als Wiederherstellungskontakt durch den Luftspalt zwischen Rad und Schiene in der Nähe von Staubobjekten, auf denen sich das Rad in diesem Moment befindet. Wie wir bereits aus der Schulphysik wissen, versucht die Induktivität, einen konstanten Strom zu unterstützen, wenn sich der Widerstand ändert, aber die Spannung kann sich vorübergehend ändern und extrem hoch sein. Ein Beispiel: Als ich ein Kind war, gab es in der UdSSR kein Kinderspielzeug. Ich habe Quecksilberlampen in einem Müll gefunden und parallel an eine 4,5-V-Batterie angeschlossen. Wenn ich den Kontakt unterbreche, entsteht ein großer Bogen und ich kann sogar einen Hochspannungsschock bekommen! Wirklich alles aus 4,5V Akku!

---------Eng-----------

Hello Dietrich!
The DC  effect of more stable run is not in stored energy an motor inductivity and power supply choke, but it appears as  restorinc contact through air  gap between wheel and rail near dust object on which wheel stay at this moment. As we allready known from school physics, inductance try to support constant current when iresistance  is changing,  but voltage can change momentary and can be extremely high. An exampe : When i was a child, there were no child toys in USSR.  I found mercury lamp choces at a garbages and  connect it to 4.5V battery  in parallel. when i disrupt contact a big arch appears and i can even get high voltage shock! Really all from 4.5V battery!
Zitat - Antwort-Nr.: | Name: N-bahner1

About EN / DE


Zitat - Antwort-Nr.: | Name: Werner D.

About EN / DE



------------DE------------
Entschuldigung für Englisch. Jetzt tippe ich zuerst deutch ein und bleibe anso EN-Text zur Kontrolle. Ich kann den deutschen Text nach dem Übersetzer nicht überprüfen. Es kann oft falsch übersetzt werden.

------------EN------------
Sorry me for English. Now i will type deutch first and will remain anso EN text for control. I cannot verify deutch text after translator. It can often translate incorrect.
Zitat - Antwort-Nr.: 20 | Name:

gusbajer



-------------DE--------------
Die wichtigsten Orte, an denen die Strecke nicht so flach ist und die Lokomotive die kleinste Geschwindigkeit hat, sind Weichen. Versuchen Sie, das original minitrix E40 DCC-Modell mit langsamer Geschwindigkeit zu betreiben. 90% wird es beim Weichenfrosch stehen bleiben!
Original MiniTRIX-Modelle haben keine gefederten Achsen und Räder und keinen Neigungsfreiheitsgrad für eine Achse (wie z. B. Roco BR101)
Also, zum Beispiel auf der Weiche: Der erste LKW wird auf 3 Punkten stützen, die die Ebene (aus der Geometrie) definieren. Daher haben wir nur eine Achse in Kontakt mit Schienen. Darüber hinaus wird die Lokomotive leicht geneigt sein, da Frosch und Schnurrhaare nicht in einer flachen Ebene liegen. Sogar 5 Mikrometer reichen aus, um Kontakte zu unterbrechen.
Zweiter LKW kann an Schienen leicht geneigt sein und nur von einer Seite berühren (keine Neigungsfreiheit).

Ich habe ein 8-Kanal-Oszilloskop bekommen und alle Radkontakte getrennt und alle Radströme gleichzeitig gemessen. Nur 3 Achsen haben Strom. Sie können sich während der Bewegung schnell austauschen, aber nur 3. Gefedertes Modell hane Strom durch alle Radkontakte und nur Staub verursacht Störungen in Stromdiagrammen.
Wie ich geschrieben habe, funktioniert dieser Effekt dramatisch nur bei DCC. Bei Gleichstrom werden Sie viele Spannungsunterbrechungen sehen, aber der Strom wird aufgrund der Induktivitätsüberwölbung bei Unterbrechungen, die den Kontakt wiederherstellen, ungefähr konstant sein.

Der Unterschied zwischen 4 und 3 metallischen Achsen ist dramatisch. Stehwahrscheinlichkeit der Lokomotive bei einer Achse mit Haftreifen - steigt dramatisch an. Es lohnt sich also, dieses Aufhebens um die Federung zu machen, insbesondere bei kurzachsigen Lokomotiven, wenn Sie eine realistische Eisenbahnmodellierung mit automatischem Layout haben, wenn die Modelle reibungslose Bewegungen haben.

Ich benutze Metallkränze, um Lokstände an Weichen zu vermindern, neuerdings bleibt es ein guter Platz für einen Stellplatz. Die Strecke ist nicht ideal flach, und wir haben Staub.

Eine andere Sache - Kontaktverlust, wenn die Lok angehalten wird. Es scheint unglaublich, aber es passiert oft.
Sie können Lenz Gold + Decoder verwenden, um dieses Problem zu lösen. Sie spüren Kontaktverlust und leichtes Bewegen durch Motoren, um guten Kontakt zu suchen. Aber sie haben keinen Ton. Sounddecoder haben keine USP- und USV-Features (nur Netzteil und funktionieren nicht so optimal). Da hilft nur Federn.

Signifikante Verbesserung - macht 3-Phasen-DCC-Oberleitung (wie ich es benutze). Aber nicht alle Decoder funktionieren damit. Jemand kann Staub fälschlicherweise als seltsamen Befehl erkennen und stoppt bedingungslos, obwohl der Strom eingeschaltet ist. (als ABS oder HLU oder anderes Signal, obwohl sie bei CV abgeschaltet sind)

Drittes Problem - selbst wenn Sie eine 100-achsige Lok haben, kann der erste LKW den Kontakt verlieren, wenn Sie an einem kurzen isolierten Blockabschnitt bleiben. Es ist nicht so gut für Rangierautomaten. Zum Beispiel. Loks mit gefederten Achsen haben diesen Nachteil nicht. Ich hatte eine 8-achsige 2-teilige Lok. Oft wurde es nur beim letzten LKW angetrieben und verlor den Kontakt von 3 LKWs aus einem kurzen Rangierblockabschnitt. Nach dem Springen trat kein solcher Effekt auf.

Was die Federung angeht:
Zusammenfassend muss die maximale Spannung der Radfedern um die Hälfte schwächer als das Gewicht der Lokomotive sein. Es ermöglicht ein ausreichendes Spiel aller Räder (an Herzstücken, Schnurrhaaren ...), und sie bleiben in Kontakt.
Zusammenfassend muss die maximale Spannung der Drehgestellfedern 2 Gewichten der Lokomotive entsprechen, damit kein Bugelkontakt auftritt und die ungefederte Lokomotivmasse von den Drehgestellen getrennt bleibt. Es ermöglicht nicht nur Neigungswinkelfreiheit aller Trucks, sondern auch sanften Lauf auf Sperrholz.

-------------EN--------------
Main places where track not so flat, and Locomotive has the smallest speed - is turnouts. Try to run original minitrix  E40 DCC model at slow speed. 90% it will stall at turnouts frog!
Original MiniTRIX model have not springes trucks and wheels,  and have not  tilt degree of freedom for one truck (As in Roco BR101, for example)
So, on Turnout, for example:  first truck  will support on 3 points which define plane(from Geometry). Therefore we have only one axle in contact with rails. Moreover, locomotive  will have slightly tilt because frog and whiskers is not in flat plane. Even 5 micron enough to disrupt contacts.
Second truck can be slightly declined at rails and can contact only by one side (no tilt degree freedom).

I got 8-channel oscilloscoppe and separated all wheel electrical  contacts and measured all wheel currents simultaneously. Only 3 axle havd current. They can fastly exchanges during motion , but only 3. Springed model hane current through all  wheel  contacts and only dust make a gliches on  current graphs.
As i wrote, this effects drammatically works only at DCC. At DC You will see a lot of voltage disrupts but current will be approximately constant due to inductance arching at disrupts, which revert contact.

The difference between 4 and 3 metllic axles - is drammatical. Probability of  locomotive stalls when one axle with traction tyres - drammatically rises. So, it is worth to make this fuss with springing, especially for short-axles locomotives, when you have realistic railroad modelling automatic layout when models have smooth movements.

I use metall frogs to diminish locomotive stalls at turnouts, newertheless it's remains  a good places for stalls. Track is not ideally flat, and we have a dust.

Another thing - loosing contact when loco is stopped. It seems incredibly, but it often happens.
You can use Lenz Gold + decoders  to solve this problem. They sense contact loosing, and slightly mooving by motors, seeking good contact. But, they have not Sound. Sound decoders have not USP and UPS features  (only powerpack and work not so optimally). Only springing will help.

Significant improvement - is making 3 phase DCC catenary.(as i use). But not all decoders will work with it. Someone can mis detect dust as a strange command and will unconditionally stop, althoug power is on. (as ABS or HLU or other signal, although they are shut off at CV)

Third problem - even You have a 100 axle loco, first truck, staying at short isolated block section can loose contact. It's not so good for shunting automatics. For example.  locos with springed axles have no such disadvantage.  I had 8 axle 2 section loco. Often, it  was powered only at last truck, loosing contact by 3 trucks from short shunting block-section. After springing no such effect appeared.

As to springing:
Summary  maximal tension of wheel springs must be a half weaker than locomotive weight. It allow a enough backlash of all wheels (at frogs, whiskers...), and they will remain at contact.
Summary maximal tension of truck springs must equal 2 weigts of locomotive,  so, no bugel contact occurs, and nonspringed locomotive mass remains separated from trucks. It allow  not only  tilt angle freedom all trucks but also smooth  quiet run on plywood.









Zitat - Antwort-Nr.: 21 | Name: pikomane



---------DE----------
Danke Ingolf! Ich versuche immer noch, etwas zu erfinden, um eine gute Modellierung der Lokomotivbewegung zu haben.

--------En-----------
Thanks,  Ingolf ! I Still trying to invent somewhat to have a good modelling of locomotive motion.
Hello Vadim

Zitat - Antwort-Nr.: 22 | Name: Vadim

The DC  effect of more stable run is not in stored energy in motor inductivity and power supply choke, but it appears as  restoring contact through air gap between wheel and rail near dust object on which wheel stay at this moment.

This is more a "believing" effect than a physical one. Truely you NEED energy, to have an effect. These SMALL inductors, installed to block HF disturbances from the collector fire, do NOT have an effect on motor run.

Zitat - Antwort-Nr.: 22 | Name: Vadim

As we already know from school physics, inductance tries to support constant current when resistance  is changing,  but voltage can change momentary and can be extremely high.

And we also know "from school physics", that this effect uses the stored energy in the inductor.

You mention physical effects that really exist, but I can assure you - I have studied electrotechnics - these effects will not appear with those small inductors.

Four-axled (BoBo) locomotives: I have many of those. NONE will stop on an insulated frog. If it does, something is broken (wire, contact sproing, ...) and will be fixed. Or the wheels are full with dirt and need cleaning. However this type of locomotive is really very reliable and needs no modifications.

By the way, do you know ATF (automatic transmission fluid)? It improved the contact "friendliness" of my tracks significantly. Maybe you should try it. There are some threads in this forum.

Dietrich
Hallo Vadim,
die ersten 2 guten Ratschläge, die ich so entnehmen kann:
- nimm keine Minitrix E40 als Basis für eigene Selbstbau-Modelle
- kümmere Dich um Dein Gleis.  
Ich hab wie Dietrich kein Problem bei BoBo-Loks, wollte aber auch nie eine Lok bauen, die über die  Schienen "schwebt".
Dass stets nur 3 Räder am Gleis sind, ist ganz natürlich und (fast) immer so.
Wenn davon 2 Haftreifen sind, ist das Pech, das Problem muss dann das 2. Drehgestell retten.
Oder ich schaffe die Gummiringe ab und lade das Modell mit Blei voll.
Soweit hast Du das konsequent umgesetzt. Sehr schön!
Ich habe ein paar Loks, die ein Fahrgestell benötigen und ich wollte diese selbst bauen.
Vielleicht versuche ich mal bei einer Lok, Deinen Ansatz aufzugreifen.
Das ganze Drehgestell zu federn, sollte nicht zu schwierig sein, danke für Deinen Rat hierzu.
Im Prinzip müsste es reichen, nur eine Achse im Drehgestell pendelnd aufzuhängen und zu federn.
Im Video sieht man so gut wie gar nicht. wie Du das gemacht hast. Hättest Du Lust, hierzu mehr zu sagen und zu zeigen?
Danke und Grüße
Klaus

(Google translator is not the best. Und Hartmut: Du liegst m.E. falsch)
... the first 2 good pieces of advice I can take from this:
- do not take a RTR Minitrix E40 as a donor for your own DIY models
- take care of your track.  
Like Dietrich, I have no problem with BoBo locomotives, but I also never wanted to build a locomotive that "floats" over the rails.
The fact that there are always only 3 wheels on the track is quite natural and (almost) always so.
If 2 of them are rubber tires, that's bad luck, the problem then has to be solved by the 2nd bogie.
Or I´d remove the rubber rings and would stuff the model with lead.
So far, you have consistently implemented this. Well done!
I have a few locomotives that will need a chassis and I wanted to build these by myself.
Maybe I'll try to take up your approach with one of these locomotives.
Springing the whole pivoted bogies should not be too difficult, thank you for your advice on this.
In principle, it should be sufficient to spring one single axle in the bogie and letting it pivot in cross direction.
What do you think?
In the video I could hardly see how it works and how you did it. Would you like to say and show more about this?
Thanks & cheers
Klaus
Zitat - Antwort-Nr.: 26 | Name:

iomegale



Thanks, Hartmut ! Oligarhs is trying to confront us, but we must remain human.
Zitat - Antwort-Nr.: 27 | Name: Dietrich M.

This is more a "believing" effect than a physical one. Truely you NEED energy, to have an effect. These SMALL inductors, installed to block HF disturbances from the collector fire, do NOT have an effect on motor run.



DC more exposed for arch stabilizing, than AC. Inductance of motor is sufficient to set fire to the arc. This inductance is extremely big with comparison of measured inductance when you insert a DCC decoder, and motor becomes isolated  outside the rectifier and stop playing its role.
If you do not believe to radioelectronics,  run short number of  axles DC model(where motor is directly on wheels). then, insert a standart decoder without power pack, and run again -   feel the difference!  How can you explain it?


Zitat - Antwort-Nr.: 27 | Name: Dietrich M.

And we also know "from school physics", that this effect uses the stored energy in the inductor. .


Locomotive does not need inductance energy. It only allow to get electrical Arc. Arc restore contact wheel-rail, because it have low resistance. So, there is no electrical current disruptions and Locomotive continue run. On the contrary, No arc in DCC appears while contact disruption occurs. Locomotive  stops.
Do You have Bobinas with DCC decorers or DC intact locos ? This question define a big difference of approaches to get good run.

as to automatic transmission fluid concern - any fluid will accumulate dust on it. (Remember No-Ox, et al). So, as a result - with time, all these dust in mixture ti this liquid  will be as plastilin, and will wire on to wheels.

All my axles are excellently clear all the time and does not accumulate any plastilin. I use Isopropanol swab car and vacuum car to get my rails absolutely oil-free. Do not touch rails by hands. All Organic  material with time  will be transformed to plastilin on wheels. It is my experimental experience to good run on DCC.



Zitat - Antwort-Nr.: 28 | Name: gusbajer



Hello Klaus. I recomend to spring both trucks, it will remove unspringed mass of chassis. Also you get more degree of freedom of truck to track adoption.

I mill it at CNC spring from Ni-Mo thin foil for springs, and mill at hand miller nest for it at MiniTrix E40.
Then i screw it by 1mm DIN screws.  See the Photos. Also i add photo for  Brawa Ludmila truck springs. It's easy and one can do it at 5 minutes.

There are many other means to do it. By round or by flat springs.



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Hello Vadim

Zitat - Antwort-Nr.: 30 | Name: Vadim

Do You have Bobinas with DCC decoders or DC locos ? This question defines a big difference of approaches to get good run.

I have operated my locos for several decades with DC and now since roughly ten years with DCC. In all cases my locos ran without a problem on the insulated frogs.

Zitat - Antwort-Nr.: 30 | Name: Vadim

as to automatic transmission fluid concern - any fluid will accumulate dust on it. (Remember No-Ox, et al). So, as a result - with time, all these dust in mixture ti this liquid  will be as plastilin, and will wire on to wheels.

It seems, that you have not read or understood the usage of ATF. You only need such an incredibly small amount of ATF, that the effect, expected by you, will not happen. Put TWO DROPS of ATF on a piece of cotton and apply it to FIVE CENTIMETRES of your track once a month. Thats all and IT WORKS.

Dietrich
I agree, that properly sprung wheels can improve pickup significantly! It's not just the table-problem (4 stiff legs, one is always in the air). In fact: with such a "table" there are mostly 2 wheels in the air because it's rocking all the time. Worse: wheels with friction tyres have  usually a greater diameter than those without. So, when looking at a Bo'Bo' Loco with stiff wheels in the bogie but pendular mounted bogie and two diagonally mounted friction tyres, there is in sum only one wheel per side safely on the track - while standing! That's the point: when moving, stiff mounted metallic wheels can lose contact to the rail very quickly, when there are small dents/joints/transitions or the track is uneven! just imagine driving in a car without air-filled rubber tyres and no suspension.

Bad examples are Minitrix steam locos of the "new design principle" (core-less motor in the boiler). The ones I have and know (S3/6, Br45, G12) have all driven and tender wheels for pickup, but the wheels are stiff in the frame. As a result the pickup is poor for so many pickups. Worst of them: Br45 which has (theoretically) 14 Wheels for pickup. You can improve that model significanty by removing some plastic-pins in the base cover of the tender. The pickup-sheet than acts as a spring for the axle.
Also a big error I noticed: lit passenger coaches. When the light flickers, some people increase the pressure of the spring-sheet-metal to the axle. They believe, the contact between spring and axle is the problem. As a result, the coach has increased drag and the spring is so strong, that there is no springing effect left. the result is worse than before.

Btw: by very, very far my model with best pickup is my modified Br61: all wheels with individual pickup, two sprung bogies, sprung driving wheels. There is almost no track dirty enough. capacitors obsolete. In addition: when coupled with its train, there is also pickup in the coaches and current transmitting couplers.
see here:
https://www.1zu160.net/scripte/forum/forum_show.php?id=1232713#aw9

Andi

Thanks, Vadim,
for ideas, info and photos.
It will not be my next project, but I will make a heavy sprung loco.
This sounds like fun at tinkering.
Possibly not with the same means due to differing basis.
cheers
Klaus
Zitat - Antwort-Nr.: 32 | Name: Dietrich M.

I have operated my locos for several decades with DC and now since roughly ten years with DCC. In all cases my locos ran without a problem on the insulated frogs.


Do You have some video about Run? Different people have a quite different Concept of good run . My concept - Loco must run as the first speed (extra slow, approaching speed in auto layout)   around all layout without any stalls.

Zitat - Antwort-Nr.: 32 | Name: Dietrich M.

It seems, that you have not read or understood the usage of ATF. You only need such an incredibly small amount of ATF, that the effect, expected by you, will not happen. Put TWO DROPS of ATF on a piece of cotton and apply it to FIVE CENTIMETRES of your track once a month. Thats all and IT WORKS.



my layout is placed in room whwew i live. There are a lot  of dust (from clothers and other tissues). So, any hydrophobit liquid will attract dust, so, all of them will be wind up into wheels and becomes as blue plastilin. I tried a lon of different kind so strange approaches with liquids, but all of them led to wheel plastification.  Only one idea works: Dry rails by isdopropanol and vacuuming. Do not touch it by hands. So, layout can run some months without any cleaning, and dry dust is accumulating at trucks near wheels as a santa claus beards, but wheels and rails remains absolutely clear If i touch rails by hands (about 10cm) whells begin it's plastification and it's obviously can be watched at microscope.

You can try to explain again about ATF in more detail. I finally do not understand it.
Zitat - Antwort-Nr.: 33 | Name: DerEine



Hello Andi. I see You re fully understud all advantages of wheel/truck springing.  
About stable cab light in passenger railroad cars.
You can see  my run of 8 passenger car train at first message of this thread. Each wagon equipped by it's own light decoder, No wires between cars. + small 200mkf powerPack and current stabilizer (essential element). It stabilize current into LEDS if powerppack voltage  will fall. No any blinking effect at all!  Electricval current pickup from all wheels at a needles (all 4 left+all 4 right) I ve got it from KATO trucks). left and right needles are isolated by plastic sleeve.
It's really works! And excellent no friction run. A small Bobina without traction tyres can pull 8 cars (each 40gramm) at slope 2.5 cm per 1meter!

As to steam locomotive concerns - i allready have a big pain with simply quadratish diesel and electric loco models, it must be all axle drive and easy to open for regulations.  When i see a steam loco - i cannot understand how it can be safely taken by hands without loss of small elements. Another pain - full drive and how to insert uncouplers.  

Zitat - Antwort-Nr.: | Name:

Electricval current pickup from all wheels at a needles (all 4 left+all 4 right) I ve got it from KATO trucks). left and right needles are isolated by plastic sleeve.
It's really works! And excellent no friction run.

pickup from pointed axle ends is indeed quite favorable because of low friction. I also know of two other ways to install pickup in bogies: 1. brass bushings from Peho: http://peho-kkk.de/mshop/index.php/spur-n.html and 2. a thin sheet metal with small pointed dent made by a pointed punch (in German: Körner). However: in my experience, this pickup-method has a notable disadvantage: axles are not individually sprung and it would be quite difficult to achieve this. So: pickup in general is not that good and one needs many pickup-points to work reliably. Also: split axles with a plastic sleeve are not easily available in all diameters and lengths.

Zitat - Antwort-Nr.: | Name:

As to steam locomotive concerns - i allready have a big pain with simply quadratish diesel and electric loco models, it must be all axle drive and easy to open for regulations.  When i see a steam loco - i cannot understand how it can be safely taken by hands without loss of small elements. Another pain - full drive and how to insert uncouplers.  

It's all a challenge :D. Surely, a steam-loco with your requirements and standard would be really difficult. So far, when modifying my steam locos, I focus on good, reliable pickup, good sound installation and if possible/necessary: buffering by capacitor. Sound alone is often quite some work. For pickup it's often sufficient to bend the original pickup-springs correctly or to give an axle some play in the right direction to improve it notably. I also have some projects, where I want to use Zimo Staco. With that SERIOUS buffering, poor mechanical pickup should be completely irrelevant. Unfortunately it's not available for quite some time now :(

Andi
Ich hab in 2 meiner Dämpfer ne staco1 eingebaut mit 3 goldcaps. Mann ist das der hammer. Der stromabmahme ist da einfach so was von egal geworden.
(eine arnold br01.5 und eine trix 52.80)

I have used 2 times the zimo staco1 in 2 steamlocomotives. And power pickup is just not a factor anymore. They drive with full sound for at least 5 seconds.

The only disadvantage is that of course without rail contact that they can not be controlled.

Furthermore I really think you did an amazing job with this complete redesign. Especially the springed bogies and even more the axles.

I'm not discussing the need of doing this. But if we remember the older minitrix locomotives from the 80s. They also had a copper springplate between the chassis and bogies.

Regards Joost.


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